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General Category => General Scroll Saw Talk => Topic started by: IBMer on February 14, 2013, 11:04:16 pm
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Hello,
I've seen a ton of posts regarding which scroll saw was the best for the price. I started about 3 months ago and have worn my Porter Cable saw to death. The poor thing shakes so bad that I swear it would walk across the shop floor if it wasn't bolted down. It breaks blades left and right. I'm not knocking the saw, but let's face it, it's entry level and I've been doing a lot of serious scroll saw work using very dense hard woods.
I've read reviews on Excalibur saw, Dewalt, Delta and a few others. The Dewalt seems to be the best deal for the price. As it turns out, I have a Dewalt service center withing walking distance of my home which could be a plus if I ever need parts. Excalibur sounds amazing, but I'd have to order one online since no one around here carries them.
One post I read on the Dewalt 788 claims that you can stand a Nickle on end on top of the Dewalts work table and it won't fall over when you run the tool. Is this just a fairy tail, or is it really that quiet and smooth running? I know that Woodcraft has the saw on sale, and I think my other woodworking store has the same price on it.
I don't use a scroll saw every day, but it's not unusual for me to use it every other day in any given week. I like woods like Purple Heart, Bacote, Cocobolo, so I need something with guts.
My two main complaints about my current PC saw is that the blades are hard to change, and the tension is at the back of the machine and can be kind of hard to adjust while reaching over the saw.
So let's hear it, what is your favorite saw for less than $1000 and why? I'll probably see about having my PC tuned up and set it aside as a backup saw. Let's hear about your experiences with issues, customer service, longevity, durability. Which machines shake, which don't? Quiet is good, so is a strong dust blower. Lighting isn't too high on my list since I have a lighted Magnifying glass that I use for most detailed work.
John
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I started with the Hitachi version of your saw. Took the lower left cover off, replaced the lower blade clamp screw with the thumb screw from the Hold Down. Life was good.
Next I acquired an EX-21 for the top feed and for the tilt the motor not the table feature for bowls. Sweet. It raises the arm and keeps it there for top feeding and will clear any stack or thickness you can cut. The tension is up front and is an over-center device that always applies the same tension.
Next was a DW 788 Type I used in great condition. The tilt arm does not want to stay up and will barely clear a 3/4" workpiece. There are workarounds. The tension is an inclined plane and can be set where you want it. The table tilts, not the head, so gravity is an issue in bowls and such.
Net of everything the EX-21 is a better saw for my projects, but may not be for yours. I use mostly Birch that I have cut to 1/4" nominal and sand on a wide drum sander. Four pieces in a stack may still be 1.25" thick. Bowl and box projects range from .74" to 1.25" thick, and cut angles are around 22 degrees, depending on ring thickness.
Service on the EX is impeccable.Got min from Seyco.com and had a broken link. They sent the parts no charge and I fixed it.
Vibration on the saws is minimal when run without a load. Type of wood and blade choice can make a huge difference. I would rate them equal on vibration.
Both have good dust blowers.
If you do anything over 1/2" thick or any bevel cuts, the EX is better. If all your cuts are flat and under 1/2" the DW788and clones are a very good saw.
It all depends on what you want to cut. Both should be good for many years of cutting. They are both quieter than the PC or Hitachi. Ikea sells a floor mount gooseneck lamp that is ideal for most scrollsaw work for a bit over $25.
Bottom Line: The EX is the most versatile, the DW is quite functional for less $$$. The EX likely has better service and support thru Seyco.
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My vote is for the Excalibur. I have the DeWalt and used it for almost 15 years and still use it as my back up saw, but the Excalibur has brought my own level of sawing even higher. My DeWalt was a Type1 saw (the older one) and we didn't want to replace it with the Type2 DeWalt because of the problems that we have read with both the saws and the customer service. (The Type 2 DeWalt is made differently than the Type1's were and weighs something like 13 lbs less than the Type 1's as cheaper materials are used to make them) My partner Keith feels the same way that I do about our Excalibur. It is just a better saw. If you tune it properly, there is very little front to back movement and we are able to cut even the most intricate patterns without any difficulty whatsoever. We got ours from Ray from Seyco, even though we live here in Nova Scotia. Ray is known for his excellent customer service and has certainly proven himself not only with our own experiences and questions, but from any of our customers who have purchased the saw from him too.
My partner Keith wrote an article on fine tuning the Excalibur which may give you a little more information on it. The link to it is here:
http://www.sheilalandrydesigns.com/articles/excalibur-tuning (http://www.sheilalandrydesigns.com/articles/excalibur-tuning)
I wish you luck with whatever you choose. As with most things, you really do get what you pay for.
Sheila :)
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My EX21 is over 10 years old and still going strong. I would buy another one in a heart beat. If you choose to order one, go through Seyco. Ray may not be within walking distance from you, but you will get service like no other. Ask anyone who has bought from him. Actually, ask anyone who has called him because they couldn't get service from whomever they bought their saw! He will help anyone.
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My vote is Excalibur and purchase from Ray @ Seyco. You will not find better customer service. I have a wooden floor and my Ex 21 is mounted on a stand. I put a bag of sand crete on the bottom cross members of the stand amd I get very minimal vibration @ 80% saw speed.
Tony,aka,Toneman
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I also cut rather thick woods. (never under 3/4") Softwood and hardwoods. I wore out a DeWalt in 20 months and bought a Hegner. It is serving me well. I suggest you keep an eye out for a used Hegner if you want to stay under $1000 cost. I got a 1986 twenty five inch Hegner for $600. Blade changes are not the quickest but then I do not do fretwork so that is not an issue for me.
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I originally started with a Dewalt which is also a fine machine. When I was ready to move up to a better machine a very smart person from the Intarsia Forum told me to buy the best machine that you can afford. As Sheila eluded to you really do get what you pay for so I bought an 18" Hegner machine from Advanced Machinery and have never looked back. The people at Advanced Machinery are very knowledgeable about their products and are eagerly willing to share information regarding the design and engineering differences among machines.
Regardless of which machine you decide upon you need to be happy and comfortable with the company you choose to do business with. As others have said no machine is perfect and there will be issues eventually and being able to get no nonsense service and availability to parts is very important.
Louis
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Like terry I started with the hitachi version of your saw, and it isn't a bad saw, just not high end.
I have a couple of dewalts in my school shop (as well as a couple porter-cables)
I have a single-speed hegnar, that I would like to replace because of the single speed. I am saving up for an EX-21. The dewalts are nice, but the excaliburs are nicer. I know if I buy a dewalt, I will still be thinking of trading up. I would rather wait until I can afford the EX then to get the dewalt and then still want the ex.
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I picked up a 20" Hawk & love it.
No vib & cuts 2" OK
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I started with a skil saw and it was junk after 6 projects, I went got a craftsman, and have cut alot on it and its not gave me any issues, other than breaking blades from tension not being right or blade slipping out of the clamps, I did grease up the arm bushings, and pivot spots on the tension rod, did a little personal tweaking on it, and love it, got it bolted down on top of a old rug and the vibrations are minimal unless I run full out then it shakes. But so far its held up and I am rough and can be rough on tools.
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So far, the places I've tried for the Excal 21 are out of stock with no ETA.. :'(
There is an Ad posted here locally for an RBI saw, the 216-3 Variable speed. The unit looks new in the pictures, and the fellow says that he never used it after buying it. He wants $450 for it. Doesn't sound too bad if it's as unused as he claims.
For those RBI owners out there, how hard are blade changes on the RBI? Are the tension adjustments easy to reach and use? Might be worth a drive out to look at the used RBI. I have no experience with them, but they look industrial duty from the pictures.
John
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I Started with a PC from Lowes. If that is where you bought your saw I would take it back. They will give you your money back. I would bet if you pulled one of the rubber plugs on the side you will find filings. Then you have half of that RBI paid for.
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John, Call Ray Seymore at Seyco. His is the ONLY guy to buy from. He will get you one faster than any store and will make sure every adjustment is perfect before he ships it to you. I used to live 10 minutes from his shop and I know he gives every inch of the saw a once over before it ever leaves his shop. He is a good guy and will do everything in his power to make sure your saw is everything you expect it to be.
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I have had a 16 inch RBI and currently use a 26 inch RBI. Blade changes are not difficult, but it is a bottom feeder. The 16 is a gem of a saw as long as you don't need more throat depth. All parts are available from Bushton Mfg who bought out the company and is trying to re-establish the line. The price may be a touch high for a 16 VS. i sold mine on Craigslist for $350. If you don't like the blade holders, there is a company who makes another type, but I haven't tried them.
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I have a couple of RBI Hawks and prefer not to use them. Blade changes or hole changes are a challenge as it is a bottom feeder so you do it by feel. The VS models that I have tend to nearly stall out at lower speeds, but not an issue if you cut in the upper half of the speed range. I intend to change the blade clamps.
http://pozsgaidesigns.com/ makes replacement blade holders for a lot of RBI products, and if he has one for the upper and lower clamps it would make for a good saw.
The upper arm rotates well out of the way, and the table is fairly large. Good Luck.
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I had a Hawk 220VS that I really liked but sold because I wanted to be able to top feed. Bought the EX-21, a good saw, then found I preferred bottom feeding anyway(LOL). I then bought a Hawk G4 and replaced the top clamp with one from Pozgazi which works very well for me. I also bought the lower clamp from P. but found it difficult to use and put the original back on. Today I use both saws, but prefer the Hawk. I've never had either of the Hawks stall out at low speeds.
There are lots of Hawks out there for sale on Craigs List that have had little use and at great prices. I bought the 220vs (a 2006 model) new in an unopened box for $299, and the G4 for $500. If you know the s/n call Bushton and they will tell you when it was made and anything you may want to watch out for.
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Terry, couldn't remember the pozgai name. Let me know if you try the clamps. I have not spoken with anyone who used them to judge if they are worthwhile. I haven't had any stalling problems with my saws. I know at one point they changed the type of motor used. Perhaps yours were before the change? As to the bottom feeding, I guess I just got used to that over the years. It is what is normal to me.
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Well guys this is my first post. I have just received my new Delta 40-695 from Woodcraft and am in the process of putting it together. I will report on it as time goes on. The fit and finish seems to be outstanding. I don't know all the particulars about the Delta Co. but I do know that the employees bought the company back from Dewalt/Jet and are now building some of their own machines in the Carolina's. Since they moved back to the US I am going to try and stay with them as I truly like to "Buy American" when and where I can. My old Delta was just giving me to much grief but I must say it has held up fairly well.
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Bill the Diver:
I put a Pozsgai clamp on the upper arm of the 220VS. It is well made, machined and not stamped, and works well. Slide the blade in and pull the lever on the left toward you. On the right is an adjustment knob for varying blade thicknesses and amount of grip. At the time he had not gotten a bottom clamp in production, but that may have changed. I am going to change the clamps to his design in the fall on the 226VS and the bottom clamp on the 220VS if he has one, so that's how well they work for me. He is near Portland, Oregon, and is quite helpful, and either answers the phone or will call you back.
Regarding the stall comment, I stack-cut everything and at the lowest speed on a sharp turn the blade noticeably slows, but has never stopped. It may be I have an older model, as I got it from a sign shop and it had been used.
Terry
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Bill & Terry, I really like the Posgazi upper clamp on my G4, and believe It's the same one that goes on the 220 and 226vs units. It grips more of the blade than the original clamps and I've never had a blade slip from it. As for the lower clamp from Posgazi, I didn't like it because it was permanently mounted under the table requiring me to stand on my head, so to speak to clamp the blade. I went back to the original because you can pull the clamp out, insert the blade, and then simply put the clamp back into its mount, which is easy. I have four or five of the original clamps so I can have other blades inserted and ready.
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I can stand a Nickle on end on top of the EX-21 work table and it won't fall over when I run the saw. Ray @ SEYCO is the man to deal with, good service, very knowledgeable and completely sets up each saw before shipping. :)
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Seyco seems to be out of stock. I sent a note asking when they might have more in, but never received a reply.
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Well it is Friday. Monday call them. Ray has been very responsive.
If the Hawk is to be a bottom feeder then going with the original clamp on the bottom makes sense. If it is to be a top feeder then replacing the bottom clamp makes sense. Top feeding works for me and I can do it strictly by feel, as in the 788 and the EX21.
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I've just bought the EX-21 had it for two weeks there's only one word for it OUTSTANDING!!
It so quite, no vibration and you can lift the arm out of the way and it stays there which is a novelty to me and you can adjust everything.
Summary It's the Ferrari of the Scrollsaws a precision tool.
Roly
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I happened to be on Ebay last night and someone has listed a brand new, never assembled RBI 226 vs, still in the box. I think the current price was about $500 if I remember correctly. Had good pictures of it to. It is in Clearwater, so that is close to me, but I just don't need it. It would be a duplicate of mine.
Thanks for the info on the clamps. Maybe i will just order the top one and give it a try.
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Hey Paulm1, Congrats on the new saw - go over to the introduction section and let us know who you are. We are glad to have you.
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As mentioned earlier here, I bought the best saw I could afford. I had nearly given up this hobby a few years ago because of the low end saw that I had. I've now owned my EX21 for 2 years and am in scroll sawing heaven. Being Canadian, I've placed a Loonie ($1) on my saw, turned it up to the max and the coin doesn't even move or shimmy. I bought it from Ottawa Fasteners from a gentlemen named Fred who was nothing short of being the best. He explained everything to me and allowed me to try the saw out in the store. It was a good buying experience and the saw has been a real dream to own. The saw right now has over 700 hours of operating time and it purrs like the day I bought it.
Just adding my nickel to the conversation as we don't have pennies anymore, so I can't add my two cents.
Mike
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So, I waited and waited and waited for an Excalibur to become available, but it sounds like it will be June or longer before they are restocked.
So I decided to buy a Dewalt 788, which seems to be a popular saw for many.. I've checked with my local woodworking store a half dozen times, and they never had one in stock. Ordering one carried a hefty shipping fee.. Today, I walked in and to my surprise they had just received 2.... One had already been sold earlier in the day, so one was left. Their Dewalt Display had a tag for $530 and noted that it came with the saw, light, stand... Sounds reasonable... I've seen Woodcraft run this deal before and figured this shop had the same thing going on...
I heard a lot of moaning, groaning and straining from the stock room. It sounded like they had a heck of a time getting it out of inventory. Finally they carted it out. I was a bit shocked when the total came out to $665. I asked why it was so much more than the sign stated. Well, that's for our store display model. Do you want it instead? Uh, NO.....
Man... I wasn't about to tell them to put it back into inventory. I buy a lot of stuff there and know the guys by name, as they do mine. I know I overpaid for it, but I was so glad to actually find a saw that I rushed home and put it together..
I'm sure I'll put it to good use, especially since I paid a premium price. Of course, now that I have it all put together, I've run out of time and need to get ready for my real job... Looks like I won't get to play with the saw until tomorrow morning. Watch it not work :'(
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Something is wrong there! Usually the store DOES NOT want to sell the display item because they have to pay an employee to set up another one. I would seriously go back and talk to them about posting a price in public and then hold-up a customer for more because it is in the stock room and NOT set up.
I know that you don't want to upset your "friends" but,I really think your "friends" took advantage of you on the price. Unless you have a HUGE sales tax in your area.
Just my dos centavos worth.
Rog
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Congratulations John! Regardless of the price, it should serve you well. Before you install the table, sand it down with some 220 grit sand paper with some WD40 as a lubricant. After you have it smooth, wipe it down with some mineral spirits to clean off the WD40. Then wax it down with a wax that does not contain silicone such as Johnson's paste wax. Before you tighten the two mounting screws, install a blade and tension it. Center the blade in the hole of the table, then tighten the screws.
Enjoy your new toy!
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If you have a lowes they carry the cans of sc johnson paste wax its in a yellow can in the cleaning isle. Its 4.99 for a can.
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I would vote for Excalibur.
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I'd love an Excalibur, but the idea that they won't be available for 4 months minimum, with a long line already waiting for those, it may be next year before I can find a new one. Unfortunately, my current saw is on it's last legs, which is impacting my ability to make decent cuts.
Maybe I'll trade up to an Excalibur when they have their inventory / shipping policies worked out.
I checked Woodcraft's site and it looks like what I paid was about right for a regularly priced 788 + stand. I won't think about it anymore, it's just money anyhow.
John
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DGMAN, may I get some background on why the table needs to be sanded and waxed? Is it prone to rust, or not smooth enough? Just trying to get a feel for what is driving this recommendation.
John
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DGMAN, may I get some background on why the table needs to be sanded and waxed? Is it prone to rust, or not smooth enough? Just trying to get a feel for what is driving this recommendation.
John
The cast iron top will get surface rust over time and will make it hard for the wood to slide easy, plus sanding it down gets it smoother than what they did at the factory. The paste wax is best as it does not have silicon in it, that will mess up a finish on the wood, useing the wax help make the table top slick so the wood just glides around making it easier to control.
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Yes, the machining on the table is not as smooth as it should be. You would like the table to be as smooth as possible so your work will slide easily. Not a big deal, it shouldn't take you more than ten minutes to do. If you don't want to take the time to sand it, keep it waxed. It is cast iron, so it can rust. Waxing it will protect it from rusting.
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My craftsman scroll saw had pretty good machine marks on it, enough you could feel with your fingers, I sanded mine, started with 60, then went to 80 then 120 then 220 and it made a difference, the wax was even better.
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Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that it had to do with smoothness, but thought I'd ask.
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It does deal with smoothness as well as getting rid of the machining marks, they don't seem to get it real smooth. At first I didn't sand mine, just wiped it down and used some teflon coating, it helped a little was better to sand it down with the coating got even better, but it wore off too fast, the wax is the best.
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Cool. I sanded and waxed it today, then put the saw together. 190% smoother and quieter than my old PC saw.
When I bought the PC saw, I bought a Lowes replacement warranty. I'm going to ask them if it's covered for premature wear. Who knows, maybe they'll fix it and I'll have a spare.
Thanks for the input.
Any other good advise regarding the DW-788? I see some people replaced their blade holders with an arm style nut. How well does that work? Where are they buying these?
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Any other good advise regarding the DW-788? I see some people replaced their blade holders with an arm style nut. How well does that work? Where are they buying these?
The reason some folks do this is for more torque to keep the blade from slipping in the blade clamp. There is a coating of oil on the blades to keep them from rusting. If you remove the oil by sanding the ends, you won't need to torque them down as much.
I keep a piece of folded 220 grit sand paper next to my saw and sand the ends of the blade before I install it.
The end of the thumb screw has a rotating anvil. The anvil rotates as the blade moves up and down. The replacement levers don't have these, so I suspect blades don't last as long as they should with these installed.